Lao buddhist community in south of France

Date: Nov 6, 2007

Lao buddhist community in south of France

Date: Nov 7, 2007

boudhist community?

Buddhist community!

paris_vientiane · Guru

That's human, everyone always want what he/she don't have.

Personaly, i think there are goods and bad in both cultures and ways of life... The perfect way of life is something that could take the best of the 2 cultures and countries. So everyone have to find it's own balance.

But certainly, lao people who dream and copy every aspect of the "western life" (drive big pick up, drink a lot alcool...) do a big mistake, but on the other way, life in Laos is maybe not as wonderfull as we (western) imagine when go to Laos for holidays with all our dollars (that have much more vallue in Laos than in our own coutries.... what do you get in France with 1$? nothing... in Laos, you can eat for lunch or diner!)

Date: Nov 7, 2007

Anonymous wrote:
Lao Buddhist community in south of France organized the so called Boun Ork Phansa in Juvignac-Montpellier on the 4 November, 2007. They are keeping up the Laotian Buddhist tradition quite well not less than their cousins who live in the native home land.
Now, I can say they love Laos very muchl like every laotian who lives in Laos and everywhere in the world. However, I do see some young Laotians in Laos, who dream to do their life like in the occidental countries. I would say that they have a wrong dream. Does is it ?

Probably you are right. But I am not so sure. Firstly, practicing Buddhist culture doesn't always mean that the Lao-French people love Laos directly. All Buddhists are doing the same in Thailand, Cambodia or in Burma. Do we can tell that they love Laos? Definitely not.

Secondly, the fact that Lao people try to improve our life you think is mistake.
I don't agree either. Why? Now our government opens Laos to the world, attracts foreign investors to do business in Laos, improves our manpowers, creates lots for Lao people. That is the only and best way that every should do. Now Lao people can improve their life much better than last time, no doubt.

Finally, I would like to say that right or wrong dream, time will tell. Don't be so sure that you right. It is like you wrote this article in English. You did not know what was wrong, although I try hard to understand what you want to say.

To some extend, I think the comments from from French side are almost the same like this. No wonder, when French colony rulers governed Laos, they never constructed any things for Lao people, but only took everything from Laos to France. No wonder Laos is still poor and France is developed.

paris_vientiane · Guru

Anonymous wrote:

Secondly, the fact that Lao people try to improve our life you think is mistake.
I don't agree either. Why? Now our government opens Laos to the world, attracts foreign investors to do business in Laos, improves our manpowers, creates lots for Lao people. That is the only and best way that every should do. Now Lao people can improve their life much better than last time, no doubt.

The problem is not that people are trying to improve their life conditions.... for sure it's a good thing and we can all be happy with that
The problem is HOW people do it.

Is buying a big car that pollute a lot is the right solution when at the same time, in "developed countries", we are trying to reduce trafic, reduce our energy consumption by fafourising bicycles and ecological transportation to replace (little by little) cars? For sure new rich lao people like the first solution, but they don't realise the consequences of what they do. Are you happy to see Vientiane invaded by trafic jams and big cars dangerous for all the ones who still drive motorbikes? And do you realise that this is just the early beginning of a big and sad change if those people don't change their mind? Are you sure they have nothing better to do with their new money? Do they realise how much money their car will cost them in a few years, when oil price will be higher and higher?

Do a country like Laos want to be an eternal folower, always one step behind others, or Do laos want to be a leader and considered as an example for the 21th century?

Sorry, but i prefer the second solution...and i sincerely believe it's possible.
And this second solution mean still go ahead on some subject (build infrastructures, improve schools and universities, hospitals...) but also accept to go a step behind (compared with the current most developped countries) regarding other subjects (energy consumption, environmental impact of human way of life...). We know now that we won't have the choise in the future, but it's a big big change that we have to prepare now. And it's easier to prepare this for a country like Laos where near everything still need to be built than in a country like mine (or worse: USA) where everything exist yet, but built and organised according to obsolete standards of the past 20th century.

Do Lao people are also ready to sacrify their children's future quality of life to improve their own life without care about environmental impact, as WE did in our "modern" countries?
The difference is that WE DIDN'T KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES when we built our countries like this... Now, we know we did mistakes, and we try, little by little, to change things -it's very hard so things go slowly-. So the current situation of our countries are certainly not an exemple to follow! So please, don't copy us! Or copy what we begin to try to do, not what we did in the past! If they really want to improve their living conditions, lao people should try to improve what can be improve but also be very carefull to preserve all the good things that should be preserved, and this second point is very very important. The problem is that it's sometime difficult to identify what should be protected, because those things are natural for people, they always had them... so they don't imagine that they can disapear and don't imagine how life can be (hard) without them. The main problem is that when people think about an improvement, they don't see or don't want to see all the bad consequences of their choise... and we discover 10, 20 or 30 years later that it would have been better to do differently or maybe do nothing... but it's too late!

Why do you think i seriously think i could move and live to Laos in a few years (4 or 5 years), and this despite the quite good situation i have in my country compared with many people (and the relatively good overall situation of my country compared with most other)? Because things are not so simple and there are good and bads in every country. By stupidly copying the bad things we have in our countries (because they think it's good), some people import in Laos all the drawbacks of our society.

Turn Vientiane/Laos into something that exactly look like Paris/France, and i would for sure change my mind and stay in my country, as i would have to face the same problems in Laos than in France... but for sure my heart would be broken, because a country i love would have disapear.

Don't misunderstand me: i don't love poverty: i love the fact that in your country, with different culture, different climate, different social organisation, different way of life, there are many many problems we have to face in our western countries that you don't have to face or even know...so please don't copy us, because you'll discover all those social, environmental and economic problems... and once you would have changed your country in the wrong way, it will be very difficult to change it again.

I wrote a long article about the details of those problems on my website ( http://www.paris-vientiane.fr/index.php?file=Sections&op=article&artid=25 ), but sorry, it's in french language...too long and difficult to translate in english for me.

I talked a lot about the "big car" exemple, but this is just the visible part of the iceberg. I focus on this exemple because it's simple and very "visible".... but the worst is elsewhere: social organisation, environment quality... because those domains have huge inertia: the bad consequences of an inapropriate choise appear after many years, and you'll need many many years to correct the problems (if it's possible)... but as things are less immediate, they are much more difficult to understand and anticipate!

-- Edited by paris_vientiane at 18:07, 2007-11-07

Date: Nov 8, 2007

Why Boun Ork Phansa in France was not on the same date (or one day different according to diferent time zone) as in Laos confused

Is it ok to organise the event on any date as you like???

chiip · Guru

I agree with you, Mr. Paris - vientiane , your idea of developing laos in the right way is superbe but I think you forgot the lao mentality : nous sommes les enfants d`esclaves dans leur propre pays qui ne possedaient rien d`autre que leur hutte pour se proteger contre le rayon du soleil et de temps en temps contre les pluies tropicales... ils etaient si pauvres qu`il ont ete obliges de manger des tubercules sauvages a la place du riz... sans parler de la viande ( hereusemnt q`il y avaient beaucoup de poissons au laos pendant ce temps la )parcequ`il etaient obliges de payer des impots sous la domination des francais sinon ils devaient etre amener a travailler dans des constuctions obligatoires des routes ou des ponts sans salaires pendant plusieur mois...Affranchis, leurs enfants prennent leur revanches : acheter tous ce qui tombent sous les yeux, puisque nos peres ne possedaient pas de belles maisons, construisons en ! ils ne possedaient pas de chariots, achetons de belles et grosses voitures Hehe ! I too, I`d liked to buy some of these new cars before the end of my life, Voila Mr. Paris - Vientiane la mentalitee des laotiens ! nous sommes las de regarder le derriere de nos buffles... nous voulons quelques choses qui soient differents de ceux de nos peres et sautant en profiter pendant qu`on soit encore en vie HAHAHA !
Chiip.
Thanks and regards

paris_vientiane · Guru

woh! but you can speak french!
did you copy this or create it yourself?

We talked about french domination on another topic.... my opinion didn't change about this: french domination was certainly not something wonderfull for Laos.... but how things would hanve been without french? probably much worse because of thai and chinese. So it's a good thing to have now n independant Laos, without french, but at this time, have the french in Laos was propably the "less bad" realistic solution.

As you said,i can understand the behaviour of a "new rich" parson...just enjoy it's money, buy and buy many things... don't care about the consequences... and copy the western way of life that, seen from far distance, look very good, comfortable and enjoyable.

but the reality is that western way of life
- is not so perfect as it seems to be.... but to understand this, you have to live in a western country for a few years...
- is not "sustainable", especialy if the "emerging countries", that represent many many people (China+India= near half of the population on earth), copy it. Earth planet is absoloutly unable to provide the ressources needed by this way of life for so many people. Earth is even unable to provide them durably for the very few people who have this way of life nowadays... even this small part of the world population will have to change their way of life...

Date: Nov 9, 2007

Hello,

The subject (Lao Boudhist community' South of France) posted here in this colon, apparently it concern the evenment on the Champalao.info website.

I don't khnow who picked up this evenement of our community for commenting here, thus it's disrupt our meditation and we can't in Zen situation because you both or each other talk about politic.

Should keep in mind that Boudha no politic. Your discussion derived into battle ideologia , it's very interesting i'm sure, both you've had reasons.
After reading your scriptures, i want to say " Please don't fall into the political conversation conflic because it's not conform on our St Boudha commandements.
With Best Reagard

www.champalao.info

Date: Nov 10, 2007

Why should we not be optimists about the future of our country? Here I am not talking about politic, but just philosophy. I hope the person who posted comment ahead of me would not mind.

We always talk that clever people like to learn from someone's mistakes. Yes, we Lao people, as well as Lao leaders, are well aware about the consequences of Western civilization. But that doesn't mean we should fear and avoid following the good things of them. No doubt, we definitely try not to repeat the bad things what were done by Western people.

In fact, fearing something to such extent that you cannot do anything is not appropriate, if not stupid. Rather, trying to find the problems what would happen is the clever act, I believe, and usually people do.

Like knowing that if we raise chickens, we can face with bird flu disease. What would we do? We should stop raising chickens or should raise chickens and try to create vaccine to cure the disease at the same time?

Personally, I think, most Lao people, who live in Laos, would definitely choose the second option, which would help them to live like other nation on human earth. Here, I do believe that our mentality would not different with other nation, no doubt. No only Western people want to be rich, but we Lao people also would love to. Although we are poor today, we dream that our children would be able to enjoy the prosperity, which we have seen in Western countries. That’s why, I believe, our leaders pave the way for them now. At the same time our good cultures would be also preserved and developed with no exception.

Regards

Saffron · Senior Member

Hey, paris_vientiane!

You know I disagreed with you before but it is was for all fun and game sorry.
Seriously, I am pretty much in line with you on the matter of Lao.

Convincing these people or trying to make them see your point of view going to be extremely hard. That if you are lucky. But if I have to guess, these peopledon't see our point of view and that we care about Laos and we don't want it to get destroy.

All they see is that we are slowing their progress.

paris_vientiane · Guru

hi saffron!
The problem for many lao people is that they see our western societies from a far point of view. So far that they see only the good things and not the bad.

To really understand that our western society is not so perfect, they would have to live in our countries.... that is not possible for most of them.

chiip · Guru

Haha ! Mr. Paris - Vientiane, you made me laugh ! Je pense que je suis assez grand pour avoir des idees a moi, Haha ! sans recours a des pensee des autres et puis j`ai horreur de copier les autres... mais j`apprecie votre aspiration vis a vis du laos et son avenir...et grand merci pour votre invitation d`aller vivre chez vous pour comprendre ce que les occidentaux ont perdu ou voir des fautes commis par eux...pas non plus chez grandmama Bartholdy ou Mama Liberty si vous preferez ... j`ai des relations et parents labas qui me tiennent au courant de leur vie quotidient... ce n`est pas aussi rose que cela a l`air, non , je prefere vivre ici au laos , yes, I prefer to live here in laos as you have intended to do so in the near future , so I`d liked to welcome you to laos hands wide pread ! I saw that topics posted here are awsome full of wisdom and optimistic . Thanks everyone !

Best regards !

paris_vientiane · Guru

chiip wrote:

Je pense que je suis assez grand pour avoir des idees a moi, Haha ! sans recours a des pensee des autres et puis j`ai horreur de copier les autres...

Le simple fait que tu t'exprimes sur ce forum, que tu maitrises l'anglais et le francais en plus du Lao prouve que tu disposes d'un assez haut niveau intellectuel, qui te permet peut-être mieux que les autres d'élaborer tes propres idées et opinions. Ce n'est malheureusement pas le cas de tout le monde... il faut voir la réalité en face.

D'autre part, il y a un juste milieu entre "copier les autres" et "[ne pas] avoir recours à la pensée des autres".
Aussi intelligent et cultivée que puisse être une personne, elle a toujours besoin des idées, connaissances et opinions des autres pour servir de base à la construction de ses propres opinions et choix. C'est en étant à l'écoute des autres, en comparant et en analisant leurs idées que l'on peut faire ses propres choix et parfois imaginer des compromis.

chiip · Guru

Merci pour le conseil, reflexion faite, je crois que tu as raison, les remrques que tu as fait
sont tres constructives mais peu de gens comprennent le mot "environnement, pollution...clean air ect... quand le gens commencent a comprendre ce sera trop tard ! comme tu as conseille... for me , I live in the outskirt of VT ... ten kilometers away from my office... AVOIDING THE BAD SMELL FROM DIRTY GUTTERS... thanks a lot for chatting with me, it was great topic !
Thanks and regards !

Date: Nov 13, 2007

Match Nul !

Les boxers, s'ils ne sont pas morts sur le ring, ils sortiront blessés ou l'un d'eux indemne. Les parieux, eux soient gagnants, soient perdants. L'arbitre, à temps opportun, il sait donner un coup de sifflet. L'organisateur lui, il empoche le profit ou le frais organisatif qu'ils seront perdants ou gagnants les boxers,.
Posté ce sujet, c'est moi-le gagnant si je puisse dire ainsi( Héhhé...), .
D'abord, je m'excuse à Champalao d'avoir pris leur évènement et mis dans cet colonne de forum sans trop y réfléchir à qui vont venir et s'intéresser à ce sujet.
Chiip-Vétéran: (Pratiquer les cérémonies boudhique- pas si sûr qu'ils aiment le Laos, alors qu’ au Cambodge,Birmanie Thailande, eux aussi ils pratiquent) sur ce point suis tout à fait d'accord avec toi. En fait ces gens là, au moins ils aiment leur pays natal,les traditions de leurs ancêtres, bref bcp de nostalgies même s'ils n'ont pas d'amour du Laos plus que toi qui est au pays et au pouvoir, tant pis et tant mieux s'il y a plus gens de grand amour du Laos. T'as dit que tu parles de la philosophie, mais laquelle car bcp de type, philo de type Keynésienne, de V.Hugo , de Marx-Lénin ou de Ho Chi Minhienne. En tout cas çà m'a fait penser à Gandhi de ce qu'il a dit en écrivant à Hitler au courant des années 30 que " Vous les occidentaux, vous n'avez pas de culture, vous n'avez que des connaissances ou savoir faire" aussi même à ce jour quand les jeunes voient Gandhi à la TV, ils ridiculent de lui " C'est comme çà un grand homme ou président de l'Indeavec un seul morceau d’étoffe blanc et que les grands de ce jour le vénère comme grand homme". Enfin,çà me fait comprendre que le 21 siècle- Est ce vraiment le siècle de revenche des humiliés. Je crois à la règle de la roue de Thamma Boudha, avec le temps, elle tourne en avant et en baissant son point haut, tant disque le point bas en montant et reculant par derrière, après d'un certain temps ils pourraient prendre les même hauteurs ou même plus.
Tandis que Paris-vientiane, toi tu tiens bcp sur les bonnes valeurs des 2 cultures. Je peux te comprendre car tu a goûté la valeur de la bonne laotienne et un petit conseil, prends bien soin d'elle . biggrin

Et que D'après ce chat çà me fait comprendre qu'on ne comprend pas grandes choses de l'environnement et pollutions, çà m'étonne pas car même le site Champalao, j'ai vu qu'il ne remplisse jamais la page de l'environnement. Que Champalao accélère la page "Environnement"si tu ne connaît pas la matière, il faut enlever ce rubrique Hè hè…. biggrin

Best regard

Kioda

chiip · Guru

cher Kioda, tu as mis le point sur le i , oui, le laos est come un ring, les boxers sont les lao qui s`echagent des gnons ils s`ensortiront avec des bleus ceux qui gagnent sont les investisseurs qui sont pour la plus part du temps des etrangers qui empochent ....et les boxers menagent a soinger leur bleus... hehehe ! c`est la vie mon cher ! tout est en elle, la naissance, la joie, la souffrance, le bonheur, la tristesse et puis , la fin ...
Bien le bonjour a tout le monde !
Chiip
Regards